Posthumous VCs

[roberthenry]

Anthony, I am someone with an interest in the Victoria Cross and the men who won it, I am not either a historian or a serious researcher. My knowledge comes from what is already known and has been published in various books, and publications, your last questions in your latest post are beyond me.



In reference to posthumous awards I read in Symbol of Courage under Changes to the warrant.

“The original warrant made no mention of posthumous awards and it had been decided that the VC would not be given for an act in which the intended recipient had been killed or where he died shortly afterwards”

In Victoria cross heroes I find a similar statement.

“The original Royal Warrant of 1856 made no mention of whether the award could be won posthumously. However the government and the military authorities decided from the beginning that the Victoria Cross would not be given to a potential recipient if he had been killed in action or had died shortly afterwards.
Instead, in cases of outstanding bravery, an announcement was made in the London gazette which indicated that, had the man survived he would have been recommended for the VC”.

Similar statements can be found in other publications.

Both publications also suggest that the posthumous award to Fredrick Roberts was the catalyst for the changes to be made to the rules and the awards of 1902 and 1907 a fact I remember being discussed on the old Chapman VC forum by yourself.

Could I also point out that this statement below which I have cut and pasted comes out of a piece written by yourself in 2005.

Prior to
1907 an officer or soldier killed in action
could not be awarded the Victoria Cross
but a memorandum could be published in
the London Gazette stating that had they
survived they would have received the
Victoria Cross.

These are the sort of places where I get my information from and the phrases, Would not be given, and Could not be awarded are quite clear statements to me.

[anthony]

Robert

Very much appreciate your comments and feedback. However, I feel that nobody has really examined this question in depth since M J Crook’s 1975 work. The medals did not go to their next of kin until 1902 or 1907 but in all other respects in the public eye they were regarded as VC recipients. I am seeking evidence that the memoranda cases were listed in the War Office List of recipients prior to 1907.

Both Symbol of Courage and Victoria Cross heroes are two of the first books I go to on Victoria Cross questions. However, the award to Roberts was probably not the catalyst since the recommendation was made before he died and was in keeping with the long standing precedent of only approving posthumous promotion where an officer had been recommended prior to his death. M J Crook indicates that the rules were bent in the case of the award to Lt Francis Parsons of the Essex Regiment but it was the mother of Sgt Alfred Atkinson who he credits as leading to the 1902 decision to approve the first three official posthumous awards and sending medals to the next of kin of the three South African War memoranda cases.

Anthony

[roberthenry]

Anthony I will bow out of this discussion since your stance is very different than mine and as they say in these parts "Never the twain shall meet" but I will leave you with this from.

Major General C. Grove, Military secretary, War office, 15 May 1897.

"Under the statutes we cannot recommend a dead man, and a man cannot get the VC unless he is recommended".

[roberthenry]

A very interesting piece on the subject of awarding Victoria Crosses in the field and the eventual change to the awarding posthumous Victoria Crosses

samilitaryhistory.org/vol122ms.html

[anthony]

Apr 21, 2012 7:00:17 GMT roberthenry said:

samilitaryhistory.org/vol122ms.html

Thanks for pointing out this very good article on a subject we have discussed in the past. I would add two points.

1. Roberts was not the first person to be gazetted with the Victoria Cross after his death. His award, gazetted on 2 February 1900, did not state that it was a posthumous award although it was the first award to include the note ‘since deceased’ in the published citation.

2. Sergeant Alfred Atkinson of the Yorkshire Regiment was the test case for the 1902 but unlike Trooper Herman Albrecht, Lieutenant Robert Digby-Jones and Captain David Younger he had not previously been included in a memoranda notice. Atkinson with Lieutenant Gustavus Coulson and Private John Barry are therefore the first three recipients to be officially posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross without memoranda.

[roberthenry]

Thank you Anthony,
I know I have said I would leave this discussion but I have been talking to some others with an interest in the Victoria Cross and all are of the opinion that those men performed an act worthy of a Victoria Cross but were not VC awardees until the situation was rectified in 1907.
The article I posted would also appear to endorse that opinion when they say.

"From the outset, it was made clear that submitting the names of dead men for the honour would not be tolerated"

I am at present reading a book

"Awarded for valour, a history of the Victoria Cross and the evolution of the british concept of heroism." by Melvin Charles Smith.

The book would also appear to suggest that it was Lord Panmure the Secetary of state for war who dictated that the VC would not be awarded posthumously when they were considering claims for the first awards for the VC.

The article also appears to suggest that awards made provisionally by commanders in the field up until 1900 would automatically go through, so not to undermine the authority of the commander in the field. Therefore it would appear the awards made to Home, Salkeld and Banks would stand, as they were made before they died and the memorandum notice would not have had any bearing on the award.