Possible Australian VC

[Les]

Gallipoli war hero John Simpson, who rescued wounded Diggers with his donkey, could be among the first recipients of an Australian-issued Victoria Cross.

The Federal Government will set up a war medals tribunal early in the new year to assess cases of Australians who were denied Victoria Crosses by the British in the two world wars and Vietnam.

Until 1991, the British issued the Victoria Cross, with Australians being eligible as part of the Commonwealth.

A total of 96 Australians have been awarded the VC, the highest military honour for bravery; six in the Boer War, 64 in World War I, two in North Russia, 20 in World War II and four in Vietnam.

Several Australian war heroes were recommended for VCs at the time but were rejected by British authorities.

In 1991, the Australian Government decided it would rule whether an Australian should get the VC.

None has been awarded since then, but several deserving Australian war heroes could finally get their VC if the new tribunal recommends retrospective VC awards to the Government.

These include World War I heroes such as Simpson, who repeatedly risked his life at Gallipoli in 1915, running a gauntlet of machinegun fire and snipers 12 times a day to bring wounded Diggers down from the battle front on the back of a donkey. After 24 days he was killed.

Parliamentary Secretary for Defence Mike Kelly, who will be in charge of the tribunal, said it would be made up of people with military service experience.

As well as considering belated VCs, the tribunal will look at awarding retrospective medals for Australian service men and women who took part in dangerous missions but had never been properly recognised.

Source : www.thewest.com.au

[David Cochrane]

A VC for Simpson has been discussed for years now; he should have gotten it, but after all this time it's doubtful. I remember a few years back when the Australian VC was established and his name came up, but the government said that it wasn't going to do it - there were likely many men who never got a VC who deserved one, and to give it to Simpson and a few others wouldn't be fair to the rest.
Giving VCs after many years has never really been a common occurrence - with the exception of the posthumous ones of 1907, six or seven years seems to be most that anyone waits. Cairns is the only one since WWI to wait more than five years. The US has often upgraded lesser awards to the Medal of Honor after decades, but it's never really been the case with the VC.
I'd say that Simpson deserves a VC, Squadron Leader Pattle of South Africa being another deserving case, but it's just not going to happen.

[Les]

Another argument could be is that if one is awarded 60, 70, 80+ years later, what about a retrospective award to the Waterloo combatants? This wouldn't be agreed mainly due to the inception date of the VC, but it's another side of the same argument.

[anthony]

I support the sentiments of both Les and David but could I pick up several of the points raised.

In Wikipedia at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson_Kirkpatrick you will notice a reference to an article by Graham Wilson, The Donkey Vote. A VC for Simpson – The Case Against, Sabretache: The Journal and Proceedings of the Military Historical Society of Australia, vol. 47, no. 4, December 2006, pp. 25-37. Anyone interested in a copy of the article send me your email and I will send you a copy.

Although a total of 96 Australians have been awarded the VC, only 91 of these recipients have been members of the Australian forces.

The unsuccessful recommendations of 70 Australians recommended for the Victoria Cross in World War I survive and are online at the website of the Australian War Memorial. None were rejected by British authorities. They were all downgraded within the Anzac or the Australian Corps.

I agree that giving VCs after many years has never been a common occurrence but I disagree that the posthumous awards in 1907 were an exception. The 1907 medals represented a change in policy on posthumous awards. The only six awards granted in 1907 were the six cases that had appeared in the gazette shortly after their deaths with a memorandum stating they would have been awarded the Victoria Cross had they survived. The medals were only sent to the next of kin when King Edward VI was assured there were only six casse and that it would not be a precedent for belated awards.

No VC has been gazetted more than six years after the action being commended and only five have been gazetted more than five years after the action. Two Indian Mutiny awards were more than five years after the action. There were three World War 2 awards longer than five years. The award to Cairns in May 1949 was 5.2 months, the award to Roope in July 1945 was 5.3 months and the longest period between a Victoria Cross action and gazettal is the 5.7 months for the Feb 1946 award to the Hon Christopher Furness of the Welsh Guards. Recommendations for both Roope and Furness were not raised until after the war when witnesses who had been captured told their stories.

[cliff]

This decoration is awesome (used advisedly) because it is extremely seldom and even grudgingly awarded. The subjective nature of the award will often make it contentious; some should have been awarded and haven't; perhaps some have been awarded and shouldn't have. While I understand the sentiment of wishing to make the award to deserving individuals, I fervently hope that the value of the award is not diluted by a flood of awards for actions that don't meet the exceptional standard.

[Les]

I totally agree Cliff. The day they start to hand out the VC like (and apologies now to our American friends) American medals for "turning up", the VC will lose all respect.

[Pete]

Jun 26, 2008 3:30:46 GMT anthony said:

I support the sentiments of both Les and David but could I pick up several of the points raised.

In Wikipedia at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Simpson_Kirkpatrick you will notice a reference to an article by Graham Wilson, The Donkey Vote. A VC for Simpson – The Case Against, Sabretache: The Journal and Proceedings of the Military Historical Society of Australia, vol. 47, no. 4, December 2006, pp. 25-37. Anyone interested in a copy of the article send me your email and I will send you a copy.

Although a total of 96 Australians have been awarded the VC, only 91 of these recipients have been members of the Australian forces.

The unsuccessful recommendations of 70 Australians recommended for the Victoria Cross in World War I survive and are online at the website of the Australian War Memorial. None were rejected by British authorities. They were all downgraded within the Anzac or the Australian Corps.

I agree that giving VCs after many years has never been a common occurrence but I disagree that the posthumous awards in 1907 were an exception. The 1907 medals represented a change in policy on posthumous awards. The only six awards granted in 1907 were the six cases that had appeared in the gazette shortly after their deaths with a memorandum stating they would have been awarded the Victoria Cross had they survived. The medals were only sent to the next of kin when King Edward VI was assured there were only six casse and that it would not be a precedent for belated awards.

No VC has been gazetted more than six years after the action being commended and only five have been gazetted more than five years after the action. Two Indian Mutiny awards were more than five years after the action. There were three World War 2 awards longer than five years. The award to Cairns in May 1949 was 5.2 months, the award to Roope in July 1945 was 5.3 months and the longest period between a Victoria Cross action and gazettal is the 5.7 months for the Feb 1946 award to the Hon Christopher Furness of the Welsh Guards. Recommendations for both Roope and Furness were not raised until after the war when witnesses who had been captured told their stories.

Anthony,

Surely, it was the six posthumous Boer War Victoria Crosses that were awarded in 1902, and not those awarded 1907, which represented the change in policy:

Captain D. R. Younger, Gordon Highlanders
Lieutenant R. J. T. Digby Jones, Royal Engineers
Trooper H. Albrecht, Imperial Light Horse
Lieutenant G. H. B. Coulson, King's Own Scottish Borderers
Sergeant A. Atkinson, Yorkshire Regiment
Private J. Barry, 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment.

www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/27462/pages/5085
www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/27462/pages/5086


The six posthumous Victoria Crosses awarded in 1907 were for the Indian Mutiny 1859 (2), Islandlwana 1879 (2), Matabeleland Rebellion 1897 (1), Tirah Campaign 1897 (1).

Private Edward Spence, 42nd Regiment
Ensign Everard Aloysius Lisle Phillipps, llth Regiment of Bengal Native Infantry
Lieutenant Teignmouth Melvill, 24th Foot.
Lieutenant Nevill Josiah Aylmer Coghill, 24th Foot
Trooper Frank William Baxter, Buluwayo Field Force
Lieutenant Hector Lachlan Stewart MacLean, Indian Staff Corps

www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/27986/pages/325

Interestingly, the families of of Pte. Spence and Ens. Phillipps had to wait 48 years to receive their gallant ancestor's Victoria Cross that Spence and Phillips would have otherwise received had they survived.

The families of Melvill and Coghill waited 28 years (the wait not even mentioned in Zulu Dawn).

The families of Baxter and MacLean a relative short 10 years.

Pete

[anthony]

The King had, by 1906, twice rejected official approaches that the 1902 precedent should apply to the six pre South African War cases. It was an unofficial approach from the widow of Lieutenant Melville on 6 December 1906, who had written directly to the King that led to the medals being sent to all six next of kin. The approval was on the strict understanding that no other cases were involved. Forward the medals to the next of kin in 1907 removed the obstacle to future posthumous awards. The warrant did not authorise posthumous awards until 1920 but the words of the warrant did not prohibit posthumous awards and about one quarter of World War 1 awards were posthumous.

[Pete]

Mar 22, 2009 0:32:19 GMT anthony said:

The King had, by 1906, twice rejected official approaches that the 1902 precedent should apply to the six pre South African War cases. It was an unofficial approach from the widow of Lieutenant Melville on 6 December 1906, who had written directly to the King that led to the medals being sent to all six next of kin. The approval was on the strict understanding that no other cases were involved. Forward the medals to the next of kin in 1907 removed the obstacle to future posthumous awards. The warrant did not authorise posthumous awards until 1920 but the words of the warrant did not prohibit posthumous awards and about one quarter of World War 1 awards were posthumous.

Many thanks Anthony, as I thought.

Pete