Pete
Corporal
Posts: 17
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Post by Pete on Apr 15, 2008 15:26:41 GMT
Guys 'n' Gals, I recently came across the following on a BBC History web page regarding a Mrs Frances Bell receiving a Victoria Cross from HM Queen Victoria: "Mrs Frances Bell, served in the Boer War of 1899-1902. She rescued some badly wounded men who were under fire, trapped in an ambushed convoy. As a reward for her bravery, she was presented to Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace and awarded a Victoria Cross, but the award was never gazetted, for women were not eligible to receive it."www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/wars_conflict/home_front/women_at_war_07.shtmlI contacted the BBC for more information regarding the information on their web page and they replied "As the BBC is committed to ensuring that we derive the best possible value for money for all our License Fee payers we can no longer justify searching some of the individual enquiries we were previously able to handle. We regret that your request falls into this category and are sorry that we are unable to supply the information you requested . . . . . "I asked the BBC to reconsider but . . . . but I'm obviously not high enough in the food chain to warrant the bother of another reply. I can only find the one BBC web page with any information about Mrs Bell. Does anyone know any more? Pete  |
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Post by anthony on Apr 17, 2008 10:02:48 GMT
Get you local members of parliament on the job. I wrote to www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/bbci_comment.shtmlThis story is factually incorrect and leaves the BBC open to ridicule. A check of the Court Circular in The Times, the London Gazette, Wikipedia, Google, South African War references books have failed to find any reference to Mrs Frances Bell. The notion that Queen Victoria would give her a medal which was not gazetted is absurd. Please delete the penultimate paragraph: Another medical woman, Mrs Frances Bell, served in the Boer War of 1899-1902. She rescued some badly wounded men who were under fire, trapped in an ambushed convoy. As a reward for her bravery, she was presented to Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace and awarded a Victoria Cross, but the award was never gazetted, for women were not eligible to receive it. from www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/wars_conflict/home_front/women_at_war_07.shtml |
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Post by Les on Apr 18, 2008 8:57:04 GMT
I totally agree with Anthony. Even if a woman had been nominated for the VC and not received, this would still be in the annals of VC history as a "rare occurance". I would love to know where they (the BBC) got their information.
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Post by Les on Apr 18, 2008 8:57:56 GMT
Just for info - the only person named Bell to receive the VC for this time period was Frederick William Bell.
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Post by heritageplus on Oct 30, 2008 16:14:20 GMT
Mrs. Webber Harris was presented with a gold replica VC for her untiring attentions while nursing victims of a cholera outbreak in the 104th Bengal Fusiliers in 1859.
The replica which was minus the 'For Valour' legend was presented to her by General Sir Sam Browne VC on behalf of the officers of the Regiment of which her husband was the C.O.
Source: THE VICTORIA CROSS Peter Duckers (Shire 2005) ISB: 978 0 7478 0635 6 (72 pages @ £5.99)
Perhaps Mrs.Bell received a similar unofficial award?
Dave
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Post by anthony on Oct 31, 2008 13:06:38 GMT
Dave
You make an excellent point. I first read about Mrs Harris in the 1962 booklet by the National Army Museum on the VC and GC to the HEIC and the Indian Army. Does anyone have any other source of the Bell story other than the BBC website?
Anthony
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Post by anthony on Oct 31, 2008 13:08:56 GMT
It is disappointing that the BBC still maintains the claim that Mrs Frances Bell was presented with a Victoria Cross by Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace. It is insulting to Queen Victoria who took great personal interest in the conditions for and award of the Victoria Cross to suggest she would present Mrs Bell any medal other than the Royal Red Cross which she was clearly eligible to receive. I think that if the basic facts about Mrs Bell are true in that she rescued badly wounded men under fire and that she was presented to Queen Victoria at Buckingham Palace the most likely probability was she received the Royal Red Cross under her maiden name.
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Post by Les on Oct 31, 2008 20:42:00 GMT
I've just popped a comment off to them as well. Here's what I've said.....
You currently have an item running regarding a woman that posed as a man in the army in the early 19th century. At the bottom of this article you go on to talk about a Mrs Frances Bell and how she earned the Victoria Cross in the Boer War. I feel your information is in error. No woman has ever received the VC (other than posthumously for her husband or son). Had this Mrs Bell received the medal, even though it had not been listed in the London Gazette, it would be of general knowledge to those of us with a strong interest in the VC. I would therefore ask that you let me know your source for this article together with any other notes or books that have mentioned it.
I wonder if I'll ever get a reply???
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Pete
Corporal
Posts: 17
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Post by Pete on Nov 6, 2008 8:33:38 GMT
I've just popped a comment off to them as well. Here's what I've said..... You currently have an item running regarding a woman that posed as a man in the army in the early 19th century. At the bottom of this article you go on to talk about a Mrs Frances Bell and how she earned the Victoria Cross in the Boer War. I feel your information is in error. No woman has ever received the VC (other than posthumously for her husband or son). Had this Mrs Bell received the medal, even though it had not been listed in the London Gazette, it would be of general knowledge to those of us with a strong interest in the VC. I would therefore ask that you let me know your source for this article together with any other notes or books that have mentioned it. I wonder if I'll ever get a reply??? Les, I emailed the Imperial War Museum on another matter, but mentioned Mrs Bell and the jobs-worth's reply I had had from the BBC. IWM were keenly interested and are hopefully looking in to the story, which will be more fascinating, even if partly true. Pete |
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Post by Les on Nov 6, 2008 21:01:24 GMT
It's only a week.... but no reply from Aunty Beeb. Maybe the Brand/Ross scandal is taking up their time?!?!?
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Post by anthony on Dec 29, 2008 8:02:07 GMT
Vandleberry
Welcome to the forum.
I am pleased to hear that another web wanderer and historian of women's history sparked your interest in Mrs Frances Bell. Was the historian able to throw any light on a subject that has eluded this forum for fifteen months?
I would hope and expect that the whole group was aware that there were many nurses - military and non military - at work during the Boer War - as indeed in the Crimea, WWI and WW2 etc.
If you read all the posts you will see that we presume Frances Bell was a nurse - and there was no reason why she should not carry out a conspicuous act of valour on or near the battlefield and even under fire.
No one is ridiculing nurses. What is being ridiculed is the implication in the BBC piece that there were no medals for nurses or that Queen Victoria would give Frances Bell a medal which was not gazetted. My working hypothesis is that she was awarded a Royal Red Cross under her maiden name! I would love to have her identity confirmed.
I was not aware Angels and Citizens: British Women as Military Nurses 1854–1914 by Anne Summers first published 30 years ago which is held in at least 30 libraries in Australia. I will have a look at the copy in the National Library of Australia tomorrow.
Have you seen the new book Australian women and war by Melanie Oppenheimer? see Melanie Oppenheimer. ‘Australian women and war’, Canberra, Dept. of Veterans' Affairs, 2008,ISBN 9781877007286, 270 p : ill. (some col.), facsims., ports., 31 cm.
Anthony
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Post by anthony on Jan 1, 2009 23:14:13 GMT
Helena
Welcome to the forum. I had the same reaction as you when I first saw the BBC story. I think your suggestion to take the matter up with Dr Peter Craddick-Adams is the appropriate way to go. Thank you for his details.
Anthony
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Pete
Corporal
Posts: 17
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Post by Pete on Jan 16, 2009 23:38:19 GMT
Hi all I'm involved full time in women's history, specialising in the Victorian period. Both Miss Vandleberry and myself have done considerable research into women and the medical profession in the c19th; Miss V being the author of a book exclusively about the subject and myself the author of a book and website that includes them. Of course we're both great champions of women and, believe me, there's nothing we'd like more than for Frances Bell to have been awarded the VC. But there isn't a shred of evidence that she received it. As soon as I saw that BBC story I knew it was not true. I have access, through being on the payroll of Sussex University, to a digital archive of over a hundred c19th newspapers and journals up to 31 Dec 1901. I have searched for "Dr Bell", "Frances Bell" and "Mrs Bell" in connection with the Boer War. Zilch. I've also searched for ARRC and RRC with "Frances". Nowt. There is a webpage about nurses receiving the RRC, but not one Frances among them ... see www.qaranc.co.uk/royalredcross.phpAs you have said, the idea that someone could get the VC without being gazetted is simply laughable. If it was given in such secrecy, and not in the newspapers, how does Dr Peter Craddick-Adams know about it? Apparently he is a military historian with a PhD, and is a lecturer at Cranfield University in Bedfordshire -- so he should know better than to post something so startling without giving any proof. If a student made such a claim in an essay I'm sure he'd get told off by Dr C-A for not citing his source. Like you I am amazed that the BBC seems uncaring that a blatant and misleading lie is posted on their website, a site that is trusted by people all over the world to be accurate and reliable. I suggest that the author of the inaccuracy is the one to hunt down. I'm sure he can get the offending paragraph removed. Easy to find, as he's a staff member at Cranfield. Cranfield campus Cranfield University Cranfield Bedfordshire MK43 0AL United Kingdom Telephone: +44 (0) 1234 750111 ========================================= Helena Wojtczak Helena, Many thanks for your contribution to this thread, which I originated when I first saw the BBC's web page. My grandfather's cousin was Nurse Kathleen Cambridge, the Angel of Mons. Kathleen was awarded the RRC. My grandfather was Edward Howell MM MSM CdeG Both Kathleen and Edward were grandchildren of Master Gunner Daniel Cambridge VC, Yeoman of the Guard, my great great grandfather. Pete |
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Post by anthony on Oct 25, 2013 23:15:35 GMT
I wrote the following to the BBC.
This matter has been raised before and it is now eight years since this silly claim was made on your website. Since 1997 there have been four works devoted to all VC awards and next month a fifth work will be published by Methuen. None of the four published works and I am sure neither will the new work support the claim that Mrs Frances Bell was awarded the VC for the Boer War. If the author does not want to correct his error then how about a note to say that this claim is disputed?
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