Sources of VC

[cliff]

I realise that this subject may have been explored here before but do those on this forum believe that awards like the “Victoria Cross for New Zealand” and “Victoria Cross for Australia” are going to be regarded as something less than the traditional VC. I certainly hope not but feel that the general perception will be: "he didn't make it with the standard VC selection award committee". I think that Corporal Apiata's award is already devalued in this way. What would you think of the “Victoria Cross for South Africa”, whose standards are perhaps regarded as somewhat lower than the others and who dish out VCs fairly easily.

[Les]

The argument over the NZ, Australian & Canadian VC's has raged for a few years. It wasn't until Apiata received his that the really debate started. People to have to be able to differentiate between the Commonwealth VC and those from Aus/NZ ('cause they are identical!!)...... and the Canadian version, as we know, has Pro Valore and not For Valour.

The main difference between "ours" and those from the other 3 countries is that theirs are not formally bestowed by the Monarch and are not listed in the London Gazette. However that said, the fact that only 1 non-Commonwealth VC has been issued, it has been taken "under the wing" of many VC enthusiasts as another VC and has been included in several books so far and listed on many VC related sites (this one included).

Until such times the other VCs are issued on a more regular basis (if it can be called that) I don't the average person with an interest would be too worried. Perhaps the purists may still argue, but for now I'm happy to accept that Apiata's VC is one of the few. Give it another 30-50 years and then maybe there could be call for them to be "treated" separately.

[anthony]

The Australian Honours System regards any British award, including the Victoria Cross, granted to an Australian after 1992 as a foreign award. It is nice that some people want to treat them as the same award but an Australian servicperson attached to the British and awarded an Imperial Victoria Cross would wear it after all Australian medals.

[cliff]

I gather that what you are suggesting is that the importance and status of the VC is such that it should always be first among the decorations and having it as a local award ensures this. If that is the objective and effect then I am relieved that it retains its status. When someone is awarded a VC, it makes us all proud!

[anthony]

What I am saying is that an American dollar and an Australian dollar have many similarities but they are not the same even though they perform the same function. Since 1975 Australian has had its own Honours system. The Order of Australia replaced the Order of the British Empire. The Australian Bravery Awards replaced the Imperial Bravery awards. For instance
The Cross of Valour replaced the George Cross
The Star of Courage replaced the George Medal
The Bravery Medal replaced the Queen’s Gallantry Medal
The Commendation for Bravery replaced the Queen’s Commendation for Bravery.

In 1991 the Victoria Cross for Australia replaced the Imperial Victoria Cross. The Star of Gallantry replaced the DCM and the CGM which in 1997 became the CGC. The Medal for Gallantry replaced the DSC, MC, DFC, DSM, MM and DFM which were gutted in 1997 to the DSC, MC, DFC. The Commendation for Gallantry and the Commendation for Distinguished Service replaced the Mention in Despatches.

Australia has had its own honours system since 1975, issues awards under its own regulations and promulgates awards in the Commonwealth of Australian Gazette. So the name of one of our awards, in fact our highest operational gallantry award derives its name from a British decoration that has always be highly regarded in Australia does not mean both awards are the same. As an Australian I find the Victoria Cross and the Medal of Honor as both prestigious foreign awards. I am interested in both since 96 Australians, 91 members of the Australian forces and five Australian serving in Commonwealth forces have been awarded the Victoria Cross. Three Australians serving in United States forces have been awarded the Medal of Honor. I pray that the situation never occurs where an Australian is in a situation where he could earn the Victoria Cross for Australia.

[Pete]

Oct 3, 2008 11:40:29 GMT Les said:

The argument over the NZ, Australian & Canadian VC's has raged for a few years. It wasn't until Apiata received his that the really debate started. People to have to be able to differentiate between the Commonwealth VC and those from Aus/NZ ('cause they are identical!!)...... and the Canadian version, as we know, has Pro Valore and not For Valour.

The main difference between "ours" and those from the other 3 countries is that theirs are not formally bestowed by the Monarch and are not listed in the London Gazette. However that said, the fact that only 1 non-Commonwealth VC has been issued, it has been taken "under the wing" of many VC enthusiasts as another VC and has been included in several books so far and listed on many VC related sites (this one included).

Until such times the other VCs are issued on a more regular basis (if it can be called that) I don't the average person with an interest would be too worried. Perhaps the purists may still argue, but for now I'm happy to accept that Apiata's VC is one of the few. Give it another 30-50 years and then maybe there could be call for them to be "treated" separately.

In terms of valour there is no distinction between the Victoria Crosses.

Willy Apiata VC's name has been added to the Victoria Cross Honour Boards at the Union Jack Club, London. He also attended the VC & GC Association's Service of Remembrance and Re-Dedication at St. Martin-In-The-Field, Trafalgar Square, London, September this year (2008).

[Les]

Thanks Pete. I think this topic could rage on for years

I've also taken the liberty of pinching your photo of the board and placed it on Apiata's page on the main site. (an acknowledgment has been credited).

[anthony]

Les

I think you are safe with your prediction that this topic could rage on for years.

I now understand the frustration of Australian commanders, particularly in North Africa in World War 2, when British commanders treated Australians as though they were British. Auchinleck learnt the lesson the hard way when Morshead refused to split the 9th Australian Division into Jock columns at El Alamein in July 1942.

The Imperial Victoria Cross, the US Medal of Honor, the Indian Param Vir Chakra and the Victoria Cross for Australia are equivalent awards but they are not identical awards. Just as in both world wars Australian uniforms, weapons, training, formations and almost all aspects of the three services were modelled on the British the observant person would notice the slouch hats and the brown shoes for the army or the navy blue air force uniforms. British leaders and generals tried to treat the Australians as if they British but Australian Prime Minister Curtin put his foot down regarding the relief of Tobruk and the sending of the 7th Divison to Burma while Australian Generals Blamey and Morshead guarded Australian interests in the Middle East.

Pete

There is a distinction between the Victoria Cross and the Victoria Cross for New Zealand. Willy Apiata’s name may have been added to the Victoria Cross Honour Boards at the Union Jack Club, London. He may also have attended the VC & GC Association's Service of Remembrance and Re-Dedication at St. Martin-In-The-Field, Trafalgar Square, London in September. However, the award was not processed or approved under the Victoria Cross Regulations originated by Queen Victoria and her successors and was not promulgated in the London Gazette. The fact that the date of the action is still secret is bizarre. The time taken to approve the VCFNZ was more like the time taken for the approval of the US Medal of Honor than the Victoria Cross.

Anthony

[cliff]

So, how do we count them now. I recall that before Beharry, 1354 VCs had been awarded. Then we had the Beharry, Budd and Apiata awards making 1357. Is this correct? Is Apiata's VC considered one of that famous number?

[anthony]

Cliff

There are 1356 awards, including Beharry for Iraq and Budd for Afghanistan, awarded under the Victoria Cross Warrant signed by Queen Victoria and her successors.
There has been one VC for NZ award to Apiata under a different warrant with different eligibility criteria.
They are seperate awards.

Anthony

[cliff]

I find the Apiata award interesting. While they are awards with different eligibilty criteria, inevitably the question of status arises. Was Apiata ever considered for the Imperial VC or do his being a New Zealander and the existence of the VC for Zealand disqualify him? Would he rather have been awarded the Imperial VC?

[anthony]

Cliff

Good question. Not sure of the answer but I think that Apiata may have been considered for an Imperial award if he was serving with or attached to a British unit. If such imperial award was approved and gazetted and the New Zealand order of wear is similiar to the Australian order of wear then the award would be worn after all New Zealand medals.

Anthony